Comments on Singularity and Futurism: The Fall as Fall Guy

Anonymous,

Your line of reasoning exemplifi...

2007-04-10T09:14:00.000-04:00

Anonymous,

Your line of reasoning exemplifies an issue that I have noticed more and more in our postmodern society.

You argue that people believe in Christianity because of a litany of social and personal factors. This can be, as you say, because society has "bombarded [them] with claims of the supernatural, religion and countless more dubious, unprovable claims." We may try to explain belief as a way of wishing our uninformed, and sometimes unreasonable, worldview mystically into existence. I may need comfort, and, therefore, I turn to an omnipotent and beneficent creator to satisfy this desire. Additionally, I may fear the unknown and seek a God as some solace or explanation for the existence of heaven. You then assume that this is a product of lazy thinking or a lack of intellectual rigor, that is, that Christians may be too afraid to ask the hard questions that atheists ask and their beliefs are "wishful and delusional thinking."

The problem as I see it, is that this argument never proves why Christians are wrong. It simply assumes that they are and then goes about explaining why. C.S. Lewis calls this Bulverism (an eponymous term for its fictional creator). This, too, is a fallacy: ad hominem. We attack those who believe instead of dealing with what they believe.

Such an argument glosses over the fact that your position cannot be "proven" -- not by the same standards to which you hold Christianity. It is an argument idicative of your worldview.

This argument sets up atheists as the only clear thinking individuals to weigh in on this topic. If Christians are tainted by society and personal believes, what makes atheists immune?

Could a Christian not, just as easily, explain the atheist stance as a result of some nihilistic upbringing? Just as you charge Christians with believing in God because they are too afraid to accept the implacations of His absence, can we not accuse atheists of some deep-seeded anger towards God for some tragedy, or disappointment with the way their lives turned out? It makes perfect sense that people would want to deny the existence of a God who will one day judge all men and women. If they do that, they can live their lives any way they choose without consequence.

If you are don't feel scandalized by these propositions, I know many atheists who would and with good reason. There is no doubt that many of us have met atheists who doubt for all the reasons I have given, but you may argue that this is not a just or accurate representation of the atheist worldview and you may be right.

So, what I am proposing is that we some way to argue the issues without resulting to this kind of intellectual "Bulverism." It may make you feel better to point out the oversimplification in the oversimplified versions of Christianity, but you're a far cry away from dealing with the real thing.

"This just isn't how people work" - Spaceman spiff...

2007-03-28T14:48:00.000-04:00

"This just isn't how people work" - Spaceman spiff

Having had many conversations with Christians, many have stated "they believe it because the bible says so"

So I guess some people do work like that.

As for "Why do people choose Christianity" (or any other religion)

Of course, there isn't just one reason, there are many. Society is bombarded with claims of the supernatural, religion and countless more dubious, unprovable claims. People are spoonfed this nonsense throughout their lives. Few think about such things critically, they rely too much on hear say, pseudo nonsense in the media and the indoctrination imposed on them by their peers. Many are so ignorant as to the workings of society, history and science etc, they find little reason to question. There are people who perhaps have suffered and seek comfort in cults and state endorsed religions, these religions or cults allow them to gain friendship and re-enforce their new found beliefs through mutual indoctrination. Then there is the age old fear of death, not knowing what happens when they die. This thought terrifies many people, so they adopt beliefs that may give them some sort of comfort.

Of course, the above doesn't make their belief systems true.

"How do people become atheists? Don't books play a role in that too?"

I simply don't believe in the many claimed concepts of Gods and Goddesses - I see them for what they are, claims made from ignorance, wishful and delusional thinking.

Eating from the tree was evidence of something dee...

2007-03-25T21:35:00.000-04:00

Eating from the tree was evidence of something deeper within the first man and woman. In terms of Romans 3:23, they came short of glorifying God. They desired the fruit and the promise of all knowledge more than God. It is the same reason Satan and the angels that followed him were kicked out of heaven. They wanted the glory that only belongs to God. God is infinitely glorious and failing to see and savor His glory warrants infinite punishment. The suffering in this world is used to show how heinous sin is. The good thing is that God did not leave us in our sin and ultimate damnation but Christ died that He might bring us to God. 1 Peter 3:18 says, "Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God." Paul understood the role of suffering in a Christian's life. In 2 Corinthians he wrote, "So to keep me from being too elated by the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from being too elated...For the sake of Christ, then I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities." St. Augustine once wrote speaking of God, "Our heart is restless until it rests in You." That is what it means to become a Christian. We turn from the fleeting pleasures of this world to the all satisfying God of the Universe.

Check out my new post!

2007-03-25T19:57:00.000-04:00

Check out my new post!

"On what basis do you make these claims, believe t...

2007-03-25T19:16:00.000-04:00

"On what basis do you make these claims, believe these things? As far as I can see, the answer comes down to this: There is a book, called The Bible, that says so."

This just isn't how people work, not even Christians. Why do they choose Christianity when there are plenty of books saying all sorts of different things? Would you say its because of how they grew up? Then why do some people leave Christianity while others stay and why do completely unreligious people convert to Christianity?

Speaking of which, how do people become atheists? Don't books play a role in that too?

I'd suggest there's a lot more going on. All people look for ways to make sense of the vast range of experiences they have. Emotions play a role in *everyone's* conversions and aversions.

Some people read the Bible, and see Christianity practiced, in such a way that resonates with, that *explains* what they see in a way that nothing else does. They read about God and recognize that the God in those pages is what, or more properly, Whom they have been experiencing their whole lives.

Others read it and see only fanciful stories. All humans have what we could label "external" and "internal" experiences, but the question is which is to frame which, and how is their relationship to be understood? How does someone decide that the external has such primacy and that the internal shouldn't be trusted?

For C.S. Lewis, conversion from atheism to theism, and then to Christianity, centered around experiences of desire for joy and wonder in his life. Some experiences seemed to meet this desire, but never quite satisfy or fulfill, instead pointing beyond to something greater. For him, this seemed inexplicable by materialism. So he concluded that there must be something else. Eventually this led him to Christianity, because his experiences resonated with what he found there.

The way it resonated with his experience, combined with the fact that reason led him to believe that the Bible is generally reliable as a historical document, led him to become a believer.

I know for me, the feeling of having been fooled has made it very difficult for me to trust anything hopeful that comes from what we might call "internal" experiences. I imagine that the same is true for a lot of atheists, and that this has about as much to do with them becoming atheists as an honest academic dissatisfaction with the myriad of responses to the problem of evil.

Comments on Singularity and Futurism: The Fall as Fall Guy

Anonymous,Your line of reasoning exemplifi...

"This just isn't how people work" - Spaceman spiff...

Eating from the tree was evidence of something dee...

Check out my new post!

"On what basis do you make these claims, believe t...

Anonymous,

Your line of reasoning exemplifi...